Today’s guest on TBIHTW is Brad Listi, best known as the creator of the OTHERPPL with Brad Listi podcast. Hailed by everyone from The New Yorker to Electric Literature as a go-to literary podcast, OTHERPPL boasts over 770+ episodes, making it also one of the longest running literary podcasts as well.
Today’s guest on TBIHTW is Brad Listi, best known as the creator of the OTHERPPL with Brad Listi podcast. Hailed by everyone from The New Yorker to Electric Literature as a go-to literary podcast, OTHERPPL boasts over 770+ episodes, making it also one of the longest running literary podcasts as well.
Brad Listi’s new book, Be Brief and Tell Them Everything, is a work of autofiction which follows a middle-aged LA writer and podcaster (also called Brad Listi) who grapples with life in Los Angeles, the meaning of adulthood and marriage, along with a series of very challenging events including the death of a close friend, several miscarriages, and raising a child with disabilities.
Despite the premise, the book is poised, generous, and funny, partly because the narrator is so open about describing the challenges he has with finishing his book. In real life, it took Brad over 12 years, and many different versions, to finally land on the book he had to write.
He has a lot to say about that journey, about not forgetting your the reader, about the lessons of creative failure, and what it takes to finish a book.
Brad’s other books include the novel Attention. Deficit. Disorder., an LA Times bestseller, and Board, a work of nonfiction collage, co-authored with Justin Benton. He is the founding editor of The Nervous Breakdown, an online literary magazine.
Cynthia Ozick’s essay, “A Drugstore In Winter” (originally published in the NYT, later collected in Art & Ardor)
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[intro quote from Brad]: I think in retrospect, if I learned something from this book, it's that I should not have let myself get so down about versions that didn't work because that's a misapprehension of what the creative life and the writing life and life in general entail. You know, like, there are so many failures, that's natural, even for the great ones.
Host Intro from Paul: Welcome to "The Book I Had to Write." This is the podcast where I talk to authors about their most compelling stories and why these journeys matter to anyone who wants to publish.
I'm Paul Zakrzewski. I'm a writer and book coach. Today, my guest is Brad Listi. He's probably best known as the guy behind the "Otherppl with Brad Listi" podcast. He's put out a show every week for the past decade.
That's more than 770 episodes in case you're counting, which as a newcomer to this space with approximately 765 less episodes. Believe me, I was. Brad is what I'd call a great literary citizen in an era of sound bites and TikToks. His long and thoughtful interviews, help to keep literary culture alive.
He's also the author of a new book, Be Brief and Tell Them Everything. The novel follows a middle-aged LA writer and podcaster, who's also called Brad Listi. Just like his real-life counterpart, this Brad Listi grapples with LA living, with adulthood and marriage, and with a string of difficult events, including miscarriages and raising a child with disabilities.
Brad spent a dozen years working on several versions of this novel and the struggle to write his book is embedded right in the story. To be honest, it's also a big reason I wanted to talk to him.
From my own experience, I know how long it can take to find the right form, the right way into a piece of writing. So, I was just super curious to hear Brad's thoughts on this experience. If you're a non-fiction writer listening to this, I hope our discussion offers some new ideas to consider and some new pathways to explore.
Paul: So, welcome.
Brad: Yeah. Thank you.
Paul: And congratulations on the book.
Brad: Thank you so much. As I keep saying, I'm deeply relieved that it's over. It's not my problem anymore.
Paul: You know, one of the things that really struck me reading it being a newish fellow West Coaster is just how much of an LA book this is. And I know you're not originally from LA, right? You're from the Midwest?
Brad: Correct. Yeah. From the Midwest but with like a familial roots in the South.
Paul: Okay. Do you think of yourself as kind of an LA writer now?
Brad: I had this explained to me very succinctly and very elegantly by a podcast guest, and I'm gonna try to recount it accurately. I was born, what is it? I was born in the Midwest, but I live in LA. It's like I had to, like, distinguish but I'm gonna screw it up but it was like trying to distinguish where I'm from and where I live.
And whenever anybody, you know, asks me that question, and I wish I had it better in my brain. But basically, I've lived in LA for 20 years, which is significantly longer than I've lived anywhere else in my life. So, I've made my life here for what it's worth. But I consider myself I think dispositionally Midwestern, probably.
Paul: I always think that someone as an LA writer when they're always writing about wanting to move somewhere else.
Brad: But I mean, listen, there are more people in Los Angeles County than there are in 43 American states. I saw that the other day, and I think that's accurate. And it's pretty astonishing to consider. There's more people that live in the county that I'm in than live in 43 American states. So, there's just a lot happening here and there's a lot to deal with. And there's a lot of great stuff too.
I have a lot of love for Los Angeles. I think that's the complicating factor is that it's a really wonderful, kind of, magical place in many respects but it's poisoned by some of these other factors, and it's maybe not the simplest place to live, and to raise children, and it's really expensive.
So I think it's natural for people to sit around wondering if they've made the right choice. And I don't think it's exclusive to Los Angeles either. I think it's something that everybody ponders at one point or another, like, have I made the right choice? And, you know, so far I'm here. I haven't figured out where else to go.
And if I'm being honest, this is gonna sound cliche, but the weather is really hard to leave. I love the weather. I don't care about seasons. I want it to be 72 and sunny every day. That's just fine with me. I grew up with winter, so it's not like I don't know what seasons are. I had my fill. I like nice weather.
Paul: One of the other things that struck me about the book is you write a lot about, I'm gonna call them artistic challenges or even artistic failures, you know? Books that don't pan out, screenplays that aren't working out, documentaries that get co-opted, is that the way you see it? Is that a theme that you feel like you wanted your narrator to wrestle with?
Brad: Sure. But I think it's a bit broader than that. I feel like creativity, and creation, and creative exasperation, these are definitely main themes in the book, but it doesn't apply only to artistic pursuits. It applies to the creation of family and to the difficulties encountered there. You know, it's like this act of creation, wanting to create in this world and being forwarded. Something that the narrator is contending with and it's something that I've contended with. I've come up against it, maybe more than most people. And it seemed natural to try to reckon with it.
Paul: I could really relate. It was something I haven't read in a while and it really hit me. I appreciated you writing about it at length.
Brad: I think that I have a new theory of the case with respect to writing in particular and failure. And when I think about writers who are prolific or writers who are just very good, they seem to put out good books regularly. I think that these writers have talent obviously, but I think maybe one of the big talents that doesn't get articulated enough is a kind of mental and emotional strength and discipline when it comes to failure.
And, you know, I don't know, I can't really prove my case, but I think that maybe the really good writers are better at tolerating failure, and moving on quickly, and staying focused than writers who struggle for a longer period of time. I think in retrospect, if I learned something from this book, it's that I should not have let myself get so down about versions that didn't work because that's a misapprehension of what the creative life and the writing life and life, in general, entail. You know, like, there are so many failures. That's natural, even for the great ones. And I think they accept it. And I was having a hard time doing that. And hopefully, in subsequent books, it won't be the case to that degree.
And I also have to kind of give myself a little bit of an out because it is really dispiriting to spend a year of your life or two years of your life on a project, and to think it's gonna work, and then to have it disintegrate, or not work, or fall flat, or be rejected, or any number of things. And it's not simple, you know. It's not simple to deal with that, especially when, you know, these projects usually don't earn you much money. It just feels absurd, you know?
Paul: Yeah. Yeah. It reminded me of some excruciating experiences in my own life trying to get different essays out and the fantasy of what the piece can be in my head and versus what has come out and realizing either the skillset isn't there, the conception or something, I just appreciated you writing about that.
Brad: You know, I think what I came to realize about myself is that a book can only be ready when it's ready. I think a lot of times when writers encounter failure and I speak about myself, in particular, it's that they're trying to put something out that's just not ready yet. And that can be a very strong impulse. You want it to be done. You want it out of you. You wanna see it in print. You want to have that validation.
And I think that this is what I'm talking about when I say that really good writers have maybe a more finely tuned sense of emotional restraint and control, like, are able to see their work objectively, are able to understand and resist that emotional impulse to be done before the thing is done, and to accept how hard the work is. It's really hard work to see a book through to completion. Many drafts, many failures, probably thousands of pages. And you have to come to terms with that labor if you want your work to really stand up.
Paul: At one point, the narrator hears back from his agent. And I guess the book is called Happiness is Chemicals at that time, and the agent writes back, "Didn't trust that your protagonist life was going to get better." And she really needed it too. I thought that was... I laughed out loud when I read that. It's funny, but it's kind of painful too. I guess my question is what did you make of that moment?
Brad: Well, I'll say a couple of things. I think with the benefit of hindsight and relative to all that we've been talking about, it must be said that creative failure, and maybe failure, in general, is funny. There's something absurd, and obnoxious, and funny, and grim about creative failure, especially artistic failure and all these ambitions and imagined successes, and all of it, I think has a certain comical error to it.
And then this letter, this email that the narrator who's named Brad Listi receives from his agent talking about how she really needs to feel like something's gonna go right for this guy alludes to previous iterations of the book that did not work. Because as my friend, Steve Almond, who just interviewed me for my own show said there was not... It's like too much recollection and not enough reflection, something like that.
It took me a bit...maybe longer than it should have to realize that it's not enough to just recreate on-the-page situations that you've lived through, you know, fictionally or otherwise. There has to be perspective in it. There has to be some kind of creative distance and reflective quality to the writing. Hopefully, a little bit of humor if you're me, just because that's my natural tendency. And it's very difficult.
This is tied to what I was saying about so many writers, you know, not succeeding because they just didn't finish. They didn't accept the failure that was happening on the page. And the thought of maybe going back to the drawing board or really having to dig in on an edit was just too painful, which I can relate to.
I think that it's very easy for me anyway, to lose track of the fact that I'm writing for a reader. And in failed versions, I was writing too much for myself and my own sense of fulfillment or need to exorcise demons or get stuff out of me and put it on the page. And I wasn't quite writing for somebody sitting alone with the book, you know, in a coffee shop or at home or whatever. And the book did not work until I got to a place where that was primary.
[music] BREAK 1
Paul: You kind of answered this question in some ways but I wanna dig in a little more. One of the things that really intrigued me about interviewing you, which is just I guess 12-year journey that you were on doing this book, I wonder just for folks who won't have had the benefit of reading the book yet, just, could you walk us through, you know, quickly the backstory, like, of these 12 years? What did those look like?
Brad: Well, it's funny I was saying last night I had a book launch event and I was talking to a friend of mine afterwards. And I was like, you know, in the book I say 12 years, I honestly don't know exactly how long it took me to write this book. I would have to excavate my hard drive and look at Microsoft Word documents. And, you know, his book is pieced together from so many disparate efforts and, you know, bits and pieces that wound up working, you know, and I had to excise so many more that did not.
But as I describe in the book, I was trying different kinds of novels essentially that were maybe more purely fictional in their orientation versus the auto-fiction that I ended with. And along the way, was dealing with a series of personal challenges, personal traumas in the form of five miscarriages, losing a very close friend to an accidental overdose. And then finally having a second child and having to deal with the reality of his diagnosis with some pretty serious disabilities.
You know, as I say, in the book, with each of these events, I would lose my footing it seemed. Maybe not in a one-for-one way, but especially with the big ones. It had a way of really knocking me off my foundation. And it would take a book like Happiness is Chemical, you know, like a draft of a book that I had been working on and it would make it seem really unimportant and inauthentic. And I just didn't like my own writing. I would read it back and be like, "What is this? This isn't saying what I need to say." And so Be Brief and Tell Them Everything is the end product of a very long process of trial and error and repeated failure.
And ultimately, I think it's probably a kind of creative surrender. I finally just surrendered to trying to deal with stuff squarely and head-on. And I also created a book that is about its own making, you know? It became self-referential. It had to be part of the story at a certain point because it had become my story so centrally, you know, as a creative person and that's really the backdrop of it.
Paul: Do you see yourself primarily as a fiction writer or a memoirist, or that's the question right now for you?
Brad: I think I'm both. I mean, I don't put any limits on what I'm gonna write. I think the book that I'm working on is right now in my conception of it, a memoir and maybe a work of history, but it could turn into a novel, who knows? This one is definitely a novel, like Be Brief and Tell Them Everything is autofiction, but it's fiction.
And the reason it is fiction is that I made up a lot of stuff to string it together and make the narrative work and to make it palatable for readers. It is also a function of me having a poor memory and not being a diarist. I don't keep journals. So I didn't have much of that to rely on. I had a little bit, but not much. And ultimately, I just needed the freedom. I needed the freedom to change stuff and move stuff around.
I don't think anything essential gets lost in the process. And I think anybody who reads it, even if you don't know anything about me, would probably feel the authenticity of it coming through, you know? The feeling that this is a personal story. And that's fine by me.
Again, I'm a fan of books like that. And it was definitely an intentional effort to write something confessional and to drop the mask. No masks in this book is kind of the challenge I gave myself. And I also challenge myself and I hope it doesn't sound too melodramatic to write it as if I were already dead. You know, just to... What would I say if I were writing from beyond the grave or if I were on death door, you know, what would I really need to say? And, you know, that is what I tried to do.
Paul: You use the word a little while ago, surrender. That's coming up for me as you're talking right now. And do you feel like this stance, this narrator stance that you're talking about, like, being at death's door, did that give you some kind of distance that may be unlocked this draft that other ones hadn't for some reason?
Brad: You know, it's an interesting question. I don't think it hurt. I think it was a combination of things. I think the pandemic helped. I think that we had a lucky situation in my house because we had live-in childcare because my son's aid at school moved in with us. Because if she didn't, she would've lost her job because with COVID and him being high risk, we couldn't have her going in and out. So she sort of had to cocoon with us. So, I just had this very... It only lasted a few months, but I wrote the draft in that time.
Paul: That's amazing. Yeah. Wow.
Brad: Not accidentally. You know, and I think it's a combination of that plus the way that the pandemic cut us off from social options and simplified our lives logistically. Like, not having to get the kids to school, like, little things like that, you know, you save time, not having to run them back and forth to this or that, or, you know, all of a sudden, I just had space and time.
And though I don't remember it explicitly this way, maybe the pandemic heightened my awareness of mortality and made me feel a sense of urgency or fearlessness around saying what I needed to say, you know, I think it's reasonable to think that that might have been somewhat true.
Paul: Was there a particular moment or something that happened that suddenly unlocked this version of the book for you? I'm just really intrigued by this.
Brad: Yeah, I'm intrigued too because I've been asked this and in one way or another, and I think so much of it is intuitive because of how long the process took. Maybe part of it too was just locking in. There was this feeling of like, "Okay, now or never." There was a real urgency. I have this time, I know that it's not gonna last forever. I'm not getting any younger. I've been working on this book for way too long. Like, there was that kind of sense of like, "I'm fucking doing this now." And then...
Paul: I love that. That's great. Yeah. That urgency, you know?
Brad: That urgency, the concentration being able to write every day and really getting into a rhythm with it. I think that just the first chapter when it came together, the fact that I laid out exactly what the challenges were... I lay out what the books about and what you're about to read about on page one, essentially. And I think that helped. It set me on my course. I just got that right. And then things flowed from there, you know? But it was a very fluid writing process, like, as enjoyable and fluid as a writing process can be for me, I think. It was thrilling to feel it coming together in a way that was satisfying to me.
Paul: This is a weird aside, but when I read your first paragraph, immediately what jumped into my mind is there's a Cynthia Ozick's essay called "A Drugstore in Winter". It's a great piece of autobiographical essay. And she does exactly the same maneuver. She outlines... It's like a sentence or two exactly what's gonna happen in the essay. And it's like a spring though that somehow charges or front-loads the energy of what's gonna come.
Brad: Yeah. I think I was drawing on something that Kurt Vonnegut said. I spent part of my childhood in Indiana and he was introduced to me when I was like, you know, 12 years old or something. So, he's always been a hero. And he would say, "Don't hide what your story's about. Don't hide the good stuff." It should be clear, you know, like, front load basically.
And I also admire more than anything else he ever wrote the beginning of Slaughterhouse-Five. That was a very instructor... I've read that so many times. And frankly, I love it way more than the rest of Slaughterhouse-Five, just as a matter of personal taste. Just because he drops the mask. And that's who I really wanna hear from. I'm like, "Tell me, Kurt," you know, like I wanna just have him talking at me in his voice basically.
And I love books like that. I love writing like that. And so, I think I was... You know, at least loosely in my head, I was like, I wanna try to write a book like that, but it's the whole book. And it's just somebody who has been through stuff and is trying to reckon with it, which he is in Slaughterhouse-Five and is exhausted by creative failure, which he was with that book and is letting his guard down. And this is no disrespect, I mean, he did it his way and it obviously worked out very well for him. So, it's a wonderful novel, but I just became fascinated with this idea of writing an extended piece in that mode.
Paul: I wanna switch gears a little bit and ask you about something else that I think folks will know you well from, which is, of course, your podcast, "Otherppl with Brad Listi." You're kind of like the... I think of you as like the OG literary podcaster. I was just checking your website yesterday. You're up to, I think, it is episode 771.
Brad: Something like that. My episode where I'm the guest for the first time ever is 772. So, I guess that's where we are this week.
Paul: What do you do on the show that feels good for you or authentic? Like what are you putting out in the show that makes it this big part of your life?
Brad: I think it's authentic candid human exchange at its best. And I think maybe at its very best, it's improvised, and unscripted, and does not involve much preparation. I have a complicated relationship with preparation as a host. I do a lot of it and I used to not do as much of it. And I think that the shows were more uneven as a result in the earlier years of the show, but I feel like the highs were maybe higher.
And I think it's because when you prepare for a conversation, even if you're just using it as a loose framework, you're loaded up. And when you go in, in a sort of free fall, it's more dangerous, but it's also more real. And if somebody's able to meet you there, if you're able to build rapport and get into a conversation with somebody, it's more vital. It's unpredictable. It has so much more energy in it and it feels less like a rote journalistic interrogation.
So, I think it's trying to put maybe bridge that divide and create some sort of happy media. And that's where I am with it now. It's always changing and I think it probably should to keep it interesting for me after all these years, you know, to do it in different ways and try on different styles. And the listeners who...especially those who have been with the show for a long time, I have so much affection for them, The community that surrounds the show and the feedback that I've gotten.
And the fact that, you know, when it comes to literary culture, especially like left-of-center, literary fiction, and non-fiction, and poetry culture that exists, like, in the wilderness of it in American life. I really do feel a sense of mission to try to create culture around this stuff. Because I feel like there are so many people in the book world who are doing so much incredible work and most people don't know about it. And that really bothers me. I think that's a lot of what keeps me going.
Paul: That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Although I have to say listening to you, I feel a little terrified for your earlier self, the more unprepared side, I tend to be an overprepared probably out of just sheer fear.
Brad: Well, yeah, I mean, I think back on that earlier self and I feel terrified in a way. But I have to remember the context of what was happening. Like, I was really sick of social media already. I was an early adopter maybe of being sick of social media. And I was sick of it maybe in a way that was a little bit different from my later distaste.
It was really feeling sick of dealing with people on screens in that two-dimensional kind of flattened out way and feeling a sense of, like, I don't know you. And I think that the emotional part of it was tied to some grief that I was feeling for a close friend of mine who had passed away, you know, tragically at a young age from an accidental opioid overdose.
And it was sort of, like, you know the way you have some clarity in the wake of a thing like that, where I was like, "What's going on?" Like, "This is bullshit. I want something real. And who are you?" Like, that was my attitude. I was like I knew that podcasts were a thing, the literary podcasting space and the podcasting space, in general, at that point, in 2011 was relatively young. There weren't nearly as many shows, not nearly as many. And I just got a mic, got a little bit of tutorial from a buddy who knew how to do audio, and started with one of my, like, closer writer friends as the first guest, and just hit record. You know what I'm saying? It was really that. It was really that.
And then I think as the show has grown and you start to have more and more writers of stature on the show, and the audience grows, and it gets more professional. And also I think because there's just more shows and there's a heightened expectation of production value and everything else, it got less punk rock and maybe more, I don't wanna use the word corporate, but I think it just got... It just has become more, I don't know, polished, hopefully.
Paul: Do you feel pressure to somehow turn it into a platform as it were? Do you feel pressure from agents or publishers or just the literal world?
Brad: No. I get a lot of emails from people who are...they're almost always like startup founders or they work for startups. I get, like, several of these a week it seems lately. And they want to have me use their platform like, "Oh, will you use my platform? We'll bring, you know, excellent opportunities." I never respond because it feels abstract.
And I feel like there's not really anything offered. They're asking me to do something for them, you know? And I feel like it's just too complicating too because the show takes up so much of my time as it is. It's really a lot of work and I love doing it, but something that's gonna add another layer of complication doesn't really entice me. Anything that requires me to surrender control of my content, even in a small way, causes me to hesitate.
And that's the beauty of it for me. I like the fact that I'm in control of the show. It's my show. I host it, I book it, I pick the music. Like, ahere's no aspect of it that I don't have my hands on. So it's a personal endeavor. And I like that. I like that not only about my show, but about all shows that run that way. I think that when you start to go to a bigger platform, like, one of these, like, content aggregating media companies, it might bring you more audience.
They might be able to help you promotionally or leverage other shows to get your show more listeners or all the things that they might try to entice you with, but you will have to surrender control or to some degree as a result of it, you might have to surrender ownership of your content to some degree. That's part of the... It's usually baked into the cake there.
Paul: Right. Right.
Brad: Somebody would have to make me a really great offer. I think that I'm content to sort of steer my own ship.
Paul: Are you listening, Elon? [both laugh]. So it's something that's really coming through for me. You know, I think of you also as the guy that started the "Nervous Breakdown." Do you think yourself as a good literary citizen or is literary citizenry an important value?
Brad: It's a hugely important value and I hope I'm a good literary citizen, you know. I think that it's important for people who do this to find ways to contribute to literary culture, and to give back, and to make opportunities, and spaces for other writers to blurb their books. I mean, there's a million different ways that you can do it. But I think that in a culture that's as sick as ours and in a capitalist structure that is so cruel oftentimes, and just isn't designed really to accommodate the arts, you know, especially the arts that are less explicitly commercial, and don't involve cartoons or whatever it is, you know, I think that it becomes a DIY situation.
Like, if we don't fight for books, then we're screwed. I don't think anybody's gonna come to the rescue. It's gotta be something that happens from within. And I think if I've done anything like, you know, the "Nervous Breakdown" and OTHERPPL are probably the two big things that I've done. It's all come from a sense of exasperation and frustration and this like panic, almost that these really great artists that I really love and admire, nobody knows about them. And that drives me crazy.
Paul: Yeah. Yeah.
Brad: I've been driven crazy by that. And, you know, it feels like an emergency to me.
Paul: I feel that way, even in terms of who I book on the show. I mean, sometimes like you, it's people coming out with books. But it's a new show. But I also feel like, "Gosh, I have all these, you know, people I know, or friends, or other people whose books I love, and they're not getting out there sometimes." And it's really important to kind of put a stake in the ground and kind of shake people and say, "You gotta pay attention to this."
Brad: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think as well, I have a hard time not trying an experiment if it becomes of interest to me. So, when I got the idea to start my own online magazine, like, literary magazine or blog, you know, this was like 2005, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know how to create a website. The earliest iteration of the site was comically amateur. I didn't have any funding. You know what I'm saying? I wasn't, like, geared up for success.
But I could not stop myself from trying to make it materialize. And likewise, with the podcast, like, once I got the idea and thought about it, it just became sort of inevitable. And I didn't think it would last very long. It's lasted way longer than I ever thought it would. But I love a good experiment. I like to test new things and new technologies or to see if there's ways that you can leverage them for the benefit of literary people.
Paul: So, Brad, I do wanna let people know where they can find your book and when it's out.
Brad: So, it's out there, wherever books are sold in trade paperback, ebook, and there is an audiobook edition that is narrated by me. So, whatever format you like, whether it's, you know, a hard copy or an ebook, or an audiobook, really wherever books are sold, I think it should be in most brick-and-mortar stores. If it's not, just ask your local indie to order it.
Otherwise, you can go online to Bookshop or IndieBound, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, all those places will have it. Audible has the audiobook, but there are other... You know, wherever audiobooks are sold, will probably have my audiobook. So, I encourage people if they're interested to acquire it. And I guess that is... Yeah, there I am being a capitalist hypocrite.
Paul: We all have to succumb to the system. And then if people wanna find you, where do you point people to find out about you and also about the podcast?
Brad: Bradlisti.com or otherppl.com. The former is just my website and then otherppl.com is the podcast's official website. But, you know, the podcast can be found wherever you get podcasts. So, Apple Podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, whatever is, there's a million of them. But it should be everywhere. And otherwise, yeah, bradlisti.com should have all information you might need about me, and my books, and the work that I do.
Paul: Well, Brad, I wanna thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been really fun talking with you today and congratulations on the book.
Brad: Well, I greatly appreciate the time and interest, and offer you my thanks for having such great questions.
Host Outro, Paul: You've been listening to "The Book I Had to Write." I'm Paul Zakrzewski. My guest today was writer and podcaster, Brad Listi. If you enjoyed the show, then I hope you'll subscribe on Apple Podcasts. I'm always grateful for reviews and for sharing the show with friends. To get a transcript of this and every episode delivered to your inbox, sign up at thebookihadtowrite.com/subscribe.
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